I heard something of a radio show tonight that ties in a bit with Lars’ last post. The show was discussing a Christian response to homosexuality, and I believe both guests had struggled with same-sex attraction over the years. A woman called in to ask if they believed people could be born gay and told her painful story of being rejected by churches repeatedly. She was 66 years old now, did not want to have homosexual feelings, but was beginning to believe God made her this way.
What burned me up was when she said churches had alienated her when they learned she struggled with homosexuality. Some churches wanted her to embrace the perversion; others wanted her to clean herself up before she could come to God with them. Naturally, I believe the first group is not practicing biblical morality, but the second group? Who do they think they are?! Are they in church to do God a favor? Does the Almighty need them to do his work? Did they clean up themselves before God redeemed them?
I hate hearing of church people who reject those struggling with the ugly, public sins. It’s just as blasphemous as any play or movie you might be recruited to boycott.
But as usual when I start writing, I calm down before I’m finished. I know the church has many godly people who help anyone who comes to them through the roughest sins and struggles. And I know there are churches with many religious people, who do not know God, but think they can save themselves by doing good things and avoiding certain bad things. Of course, the second group is going to hold to whatever religious culture they have in their town and kick out the ugly sinners who can’t overcome their own faults through sheer moral courage or maybe bad luck.
Yes, it’s bad luck to overcome your faults on your own because you may begin to believe you can meet God on your terms, that you are strong enough to negotiate with him, or that he doesn’t matter in the long run (in which case, there wouldn’t be a long run). Some of us are blessed to have faults or weaknesses that encourage us to sin visibly; we may seek God sooner than those who are self-made.
Like the poor woman who called the radio show tonight, some of us know we are broken and won’t accept misguided efforts to make us comfortable in our sin. We want to be saved from it, and only Jesus Christ can do that for us. The people in church are supposed to know that.
That’s excellent, Phil. Yes, we come as beggars. I’ve been troubled by an interpretation of repentance that suggests that it means turning from sin in the sense of cleaning ourselves of it. “First you repent (fix yourself), then you can come to Christ (and the church),” these people seem to be saying. That’s a dangerous false teaching that does much harm to broken people.
Hi my name is Roy Cardenas.
Well this is my first time being on here asking for help; will the reason i’m doing this is cuz i need some one to pray over me. I had stop praying to god, at the time i was lost i started praying to some one. I thought it would make me feel better in my life and get things quit in life, so i dnt know if you heard of the santa muerte’ i m trying to get her done wiht me so im asking lord for givenns in my life i turn my back on him. I really need help and its takeing me away from my family.bit by bit. How can i clean my self good so i could go to the lord….. I.m useing my mom email.
I don’t know what you’re going through, Roy, but I’ll pray for the Lord to have mercy on you and protect you from the enemy. If you can find a Bible-teaching church near you, go there to hear the Word preached, and maybe they can help you. It’s better to seek the Lord with others than to try on your own.
Yes, it is dangerous moralism. It’s the idea that we can please God by shaping up, but we really can’t. Sin is too much with us. I think the only way people like this get by is by ignoring certain sins like hypocrites.
I tried that all my life (cleaning up before going to God), with the results I should have expected.
Anyone who seeks help at a true Christian church, of of a believer, should not be turned away. But I have a question, which is really two: What is the role of repentance in such cases, and when should (the church/Christian) expect to see signs of it (in the poor soul seeking help)? Jesus did welcome all who came to Him (except religious bigots), but they did come, and I don’t remember any of them complaining about unfair treatment when they came. Or am I being too hard-nozed??
I have the vision of my kids when they eat yogurt and get some on themselves(1). I get them the paper towel, and they clean themselves. They can’t get the paper towel(2), but they cooperate with the self-cleaning.
The paper towel is analogous to grace. We need it, but God is not looking for excuses to damn us. It will be provided, at the proper time, manner, and amount that He who made us knows is best.
At the same time, God doesn’t want us to be passive receptacles of grace. He could wipe us clean of sin Himself, but he chooses to let us cooperate, or stay dirty.
I think that some churches reject sinners with yogurt on them because they can’t distinguish between sinners with empty hands, and sinners who are already holding a paper towel.
(1) Pretty common occurrence with the 5 year old boy and the 3 year old girls. Especially the boy.
(2) If they could, there would be no clean paper towels above the floor in short order.
Ken,
I think we can expect to signs signs of repentance all along the way, but depending on the nature of the sins, we give someone more or less room to grow, and honestly, we shouldn’t … this is hard … some sins will linger for a lifetime. The mature Christian must be gracious and encouraging, speaking the whole gospel with firmness and love, not matter what.
If someone who struggles with homosexuality comes to church, receives the gospel and grows, but say five years later when everything looks great he goes to the wrong bar and does things he regrets? How should respond to that? Tell him he can’t repent again, that God can’t stand it anymore? Peter rejected the Lord three times; is that sin somehow less than this? No. So the point is we expect and encourage fruit of repentance everyday from everyone, and even though there are consequences to certain sins/temptations, we can’t cut people off from healthy church life because they’ve have gone too far.
Hmmmmmm………. In my church, we believe God loves the sinneｒ and hates the sin. Lucky for us, Christ intervened for us, heh?
I have a very good friend who is a sex addict and a devout Christian. As he’s aged, his repentance becomes a way of life. These days, he might back-slide once in many years . He doesn’t hold a position of authority in the church as he feels he should not stand out as an example, etc….
To me and most others in the church, we love this guy. We pray with him continually and we believe successfully. He is like any other addict, he is addicted for life, no matter how successful he is.
If and when he screws up, (No pun intended…), we beat him up verbally, chastise him greatly and sit down for some really serious prayer!
We’ve homosexuals in our church. We behave the same way with them.
God loves us all and forgives us all through Christ who died for us. Why should we be any different? We of course can’t be perfect as He is, but I believe it is our job to try.
BTW Lars, Happy birthday!!!!!!
Phil
I like your answer a lot.